Navigating State & Local Politics with Representatives Caruso and Ray

Join Potholes and Politics with co-hosts Rebecca Lambert and Amanda Campbell as they sit down with Representatives Elizabeth Caruso and Michael Ray. The conversation delves into the differences and challenges between serving at the state and local levels, the importance of municipal officials' voices in legislative processes, and key concerns and accomplishments from their first legislative session. With insights on property taxes, legislative compromise, and the fast-paced nature of state decision-making, this episode sheds light on the intricate dynamics of state and local governance.

Transcript

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Welcome everyone to Potholes and Politics, local Maine issues from A to Z. I'm your co-host Rebecca Lambert, and with me as always is my amazing colleague, Amanda Campbell. 

Good morning, Rebecca. Thanks everybody for joining us. 

So last week we talked about our trip to the NLC Staff workshop and provided a little teaser of this week. Don't forget to like and subscribe to our podcast on whatever platform that you listen to. By doing that, you'll be notified when a new episode drops, assuring you never miss one of these compelling and always entertaining episodes. 

This week we welcome Representative Elizabeth Caruso from Caratunk and Representative Michael Ray from Lincolnville to the airwaves.

Thank you, representatives, for joining us and welcome. We'll start with Liz. Would you like to both introduce yourself and the towns you represent? 

Sure. So happy to be here with you guys. I'm Elizabeth Caruso. I represent House District 72, which is much of Northern Somerset County, about nine towns and about, over 20 plantations and unorganized territories.

That's great. 

And, uh, yeah, my name's Mike Ray and I live in Lincolnville and represent House District 40, which is six towns in Waldo County - Islesboro, Liberty, Lincolnville, Morrill, Montville, Searsmont, and then one town in Knox County, Appleton. 

He is showing off. I don't have all my towns and plantations memorized.

There's no way you can memorize all that. And I had to hesitate. I was like reaching deep into the recesses of my mind for a bit there. 

And I live in Caratunk, I should say. 

Well done remembering that, Mike. 

Absolutely. Sometimes in committee people can't even remember where all their towns are, so, good job.

Thanks. 

Uh, we're, we're thrilled to have you both with us, our first guests as a podcast duo. And before we get to the official interview questions, we did wanna let our listeners know that you both have also served or are still serving as municipal officials as well. And part of our legislative policy committee, which is really exciting for us.

Can you just tell people what your municipal role is too? And then Rebecca's gonna get into our official questions. 

Sure. Um, go ahead Liz. 

Okay. I have been serving as the first Selectmen and chair of the select board for the Town of Caratunk for the last 20 years. 

Wow. 

Yeah, and I, I've been on the select board in Lincolnville for five, six years, and, just was able to resign my position as secretary and hand it off to someone else, which felt very good. 

That's great. Well, thank you also for your municipal and state service. We appreciate it and, and as well as your constituents, so thank you. 

So jumping right in, how has serving at the state level been different than your experience at the local level? Whichever one wants to start first. 

Sure. I'll go, well, one of the first, one of the biggest things I noticed was just how time works differently when you're making decisions. You know, I mean, locally you've got only so many people and you have very defined limits on how, what your time's gonna be.

But still, it's a slower pace at making decisions. Things just move so darn fast in Augusta, and things are so compressed. So. Time, the schedule is so variable and so back home when you've got, you know, 30 days for public comment or you have to do this in two weeks or something, you know, to that effect, that's not always the case up in Augusta because things move so fast, which is understandable because you have a lot more decisions to make.

Okay. Yeah. In a short amount of time. 

Yeah. It flies by. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. How about you, Liz? 

Funny, I can see what you're saying. You know, sometimes they schedule public hearings in Augusta with very little notice, and the farther along into session you go, there's even shorter notice. So instead of two weeks, sometimes we only get two days.

Which I, I'm not very happy about because I think that reduces the ability for constituents and the public to participate in the process. So, 

It does. 

So that part goes too fast. And that's unfortunate. Part of that problem came because we had 2,400 bills submitted to the revisor’s office, and that's not a, you know, we're running out of time.

But actually I, what I noticed is the ability to accomplish goals and to finish tasks is a lot easier to do at the local level. Ah. I find that, also, you know, I've done a lot of things, whether it's been working at the town level or, you know, working with small businesses or the chamber or you know, a coalition.

I started a coalition. I have about 40 different partners and we all try to really work hard to compromise and to accomplish a common goal. And I, I was used to doing that for all my years of working life. I, I, you know, I find that you have people coming from different outlooks and different situations and we can get together and compromise to accomplish something.

I find that it's a lot harder to do in Augusta. Whether it's the polarization of political parties or, the desire for particular agenda, not willing to compromise, it's a little, it's a little frustrating for me. And I, I really felt like I didn't accomplish as much as I'm used to accomplishing.

It is frustrating, isn't it, with it's a lack of compromise as we go up the ladder. I mean, you and I hang out in the locker or wherever in the halls we go, we get along great, I think. And as we go into committee, we all work, committee members, we all work together. We're all trying to get ah, whatever is on our desk to get it done.

But as we go into the chamber or into, into the house and or Senate, it's just that air of compromise seems to evaporate, doesn't it? Which is sad. 

It's, it's very sad. 

It's very unfortunate. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

What is your greatest success from the first session? I know you've talked about a lot of challenges, but have there been some successes that you'd like to share? Liz, why don't we start with you?

Okay. You know, thinking about that, a few different things came to mind. I was on, I served on the judiciary committee and we were unexpectedly, I was there five days a week, starting I think early March. So it was, I was in Augusta a lot longer than I, you know, earlier than I expected.

But I really enjoyed my committee work. I really enjoyed, we had more bills than any other committee, I think 232. So, it was a variety of topics and, but ones that I'm pretty passionate about and I care deeply about, they, you know, very impactful and meaningful. And so I enjoyed working in my small group of, 13 and I felt it, it was successful to participate in a small group, you know, conversation and share my experiences and what I knew and hear from other people with where they came from. I think, I can't remember exactly. I wanna say, I mean, maybe nearly half of them came from Southern Maine or mostly, you know, the Portland area.

And cities. That's a very different perspective than me in rural Somerset County. And I was able to share our standpoint, our views of different situations. And I felt I was heard and I enjoyed hearing what other people had to say as well. 

The term is, it's where you make the sausage. It's where you know, once a bill comes in, then it becomes the committee's bill. And we're able to hash out different things. I also felt, in terms of success, I really went in, trying to bring myself truly who I am into the State House, and I didn't want to see other people for a letter next to their name, and I didn't wanna be seen as a letter next to my name either.

And, it was hard at first. There were a lot of times people wouldn't even look me in the eye.  And I worked really hard. Even when I was in the ladies’ room, I would make sure I, you know, said hello and just had normal conversation, just being human, bringing humanity in. And I really felt a difference by the end of the session. People who wouldn't even look at me before were smiling and saying hi. And so, I felt like that was a success. 

That's great to break down those walls. 

Yeah. 

Well now, Liz, now you're making me feel bad 'cause we didn't spend enough time together, but I like to think it was, I like to think it was good times.

You and I were always friendly and we stayed friendly, which was nice. 

Yeah, very good. Very good. Yeah. Well, if you were to ask me what my biggest success was, it was kind of like, finding out what I needed to know. Actually getting to the point where, I found out what I needed to know, where I'm not just trying to tread water, keep my head above water, wondering what darn floor I'm on or where the restroom is, but, knowing what I needed to learn and therefore moving forward, you know, getting, getting to the shore.

That was great and, Liz is right. It happens in committee. That's where it seems, seems to gel for me. Okay, this is what we need to do, this is what we're listening for. This is, who am I, this is who I'm listening to. These are the decisions we need to make, et cetera. And that, that's a good feeling.

It really was. The other, success was, learning the ropes and doing what I needed to do to get a bill across the line and not getting the bill across the line was so cool, which is, but I think is a good bill. But more importantly was all, doing all the work to get across the line, whether it was getting the co-sponsors, going across the aisle and that bipartisan way, getting the amendments to the committee in a, in a timely, respectful way.

So they've got the information right in front of them, I, with stakeholders, I really did enjoy that. Now I'm glad of that. Yeah.

So in that same vein, are there any concerns that you have going into the second session?

Yeah, for me, yeah, next session, I'm, I'm sure will be interesting and we'll see what happens, eh but for me, one of the top concerns is mitigating some of the consequences of what's happening on the federal level and how that's affecting people in Maine. How we do that, I don't know. To what extent it’s actual mitigation, what, to what extent it’s reaction, who knows?

But that'll, that'll be interesting. I think that's the top of the mind maybe for a lot of legislators, you know? And I guess maybe another thing is, one thing I'm concerned about is I want to make darn sure that I understand more fully some of the key topics that I really need to understand. And like I said, if I'm no longer treading water, I have more time to try to dig into these topics. For me, it's, I'm on the transportation committee and so I'm focusing on transportation funding, and rural transit. 

Mm-hmm.

And, I'm also very interested in local politics and that partnership that's supposed to exist between state and localities.

And for me, getting a handle on that is kind of a understanding, what do we really mean by local control and why is it used as it is? In conversations or in legislation. Those are the two biggies for me, I guess. Yeah. 

How about you, Liz?  

Well, I have a few concerns.  The budget's very concerning.

You know, the $11.6 billion and we have seen, greater tax increases, greater spending, and we still have a lot of unknowns going into the second session with all the bills that were carried over. We have unknowns with, we don't know what the governor is going to do with the bills that she has.

So those are some big questions. You know, one of them was, LD 1971, which was the huge change in law enforcement, which is very concerning in that, talk about stripping local control and preventing our local law enforcement or state law enforcement from having federal funding and having partnerships with federal organizations to tackle all the things that, the, horrible acts that come against the Maine people. That's very concerning. But she has that, so I'm hoping that she vetoes that. 

The housing bill that was passed, without a vote, 1829. That's very concerning.  I know MMA has talked about that. Talk about stripping local control, it takes away the planning board review. It really changes people's property and, you know, when someone, when someone purchases property, that's their equity. That's a big decision. That is their right to happiness. And when you don't know what can happen to the abutting property and all of a sudden there's no legal review. And especially in our, our rural areas where we don't have public sewer, public water, there's a lot of questions there. There's a lot of potential for negative consequences for property owners and taxpayers. So that's concerning. 

The other thing is, I really want it and I hope we still do make some changes to our property tax calculations and have greater homestead to help year-round Maine residents and especially our seniors who, people on fixed income who can't afford these higher property taxes.

I've heard horrific stories, and especially in unorganized territories, where their property tax has tripled and where are they going to find the money, especially if they're on fixed income, or they're retired. They weren't planning on having three times or four times the amount of property taxes due.

And I've heard from many people that they might have to leave, they might have to sell their property. And that's a horrible reason, that the state government is, is causing this. That's not what government's supposed to be doing, and I really hope that we can make some meaningful changes, in the next session.

So. Just a few things that came to mind. 

Thank you. 

Yeah. 

Well, Liz, uh, you were, you were out on the campaign trail, same time I was, eh? You were knocking the doors just like I was and that's what you heard.  Property taxes are, if not the issue, are a big, big issue. Sure. 

I mean, I think I hear that. Every week.

Oh yeah, I bet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

And you know, even with my town, we raised our, we did a, like a town wide valuation, you know, increase across the board to try to bring our values up with the sales ratio, you know, to get a better, certified ratio. And the state increased us again. So, and then you have the cost of inflation and you know that's hitting everyone.

Oh yeah. 

So it's causing town expenses to go up. It's everything that we do, right. With, with the rise of energy costs, it increases the expenses for all the things that we do. All of our contractors have to charge more 'cause their costs are more. So we need to do something, to alleviate the property taxes for our year-round Maine residents, especially their primary homes.

I agree that, that, that's gonna be a tough nut to crack though, eh? 

Yeah, I was just gonna say, that's a loaded question, isn't it? 

Yeah. 

But we have to. Taxes can't keep going up and up and up, right? 

Right. 

Are there any lessons learned or different approaches you might take now that you have the first session under your belt? Mike, do you wanna start? 

Sure. Yeah. Like for me it's just, forcing myself, learning how to ask more questions, even if they're favors of, colleagues or staff or stakeholders. Not being hesitant to do that because I think, you know, regardless of what letter we got, we have after our name, we're all in this together.

We're all trying to help each other to help the people that we represent and, so not hesitate. And stand on formalities or fear or whatever, but just ask those questions and favors and like, the second thing I kind of wanna make happen, which I failed to make happen, the first session was to, was to organize a municipal caucus.

And, I think that's very important, and I just didn't ask enough questions. Hey, do you want to be on this? Do you wanna make this happen? Type of thing. But that's gonna be one of my goals. And Liz, I will definitely be tapping you on the shoulder for that. 

Well, we would love that, and we would be happy to participate in any way that would be helpful to make that happen.

Well, I'll be asking you for favors too then, right? 

That, that municipal caucus is definitely something that we've talked about both at the LPC level and just as a advocacy team as well. So that's great to hear that. However, we can help. 

Well, I and MMA was the, you were the ones who planted that idea in my head, so there you go.

So, for me, I need to work with, having more discussions. Across the aisle with regards to certain legislation. I did to some extent, but I didn't do it enough. And there were times where, like I sponsored a bill and I had interest on the other side, but, for one reason or another, they got pulled away from supporting it.

And, and then I found out after, well there was, this little thing or this little thing. And I think it's, I'd rather have those meaningful, like more in-depth conversations so that we can, we can amend it in a way that we would get more support. I'd rather have some progress than no progress at all.

And so I'd like to spend more time with having intentional conversations and asking that. And I think, you know, after, I did, for someone in my first year, I would, I think I, I spoke more, not all the time, not with everything, but when something I was really passionate about, I did speak.

And so, people appreciated that on the other side. They, they appreciated what I had to say and the information that I brought, even if I didn't get it across the line. I think that it was still meaningful, it had impact. And so, I just wanna further that and just make more, even if you don't agree on everything, you can still talk about it.

And understand one another where we're coming from more. And I think that goes a long way. Granted, I think the majority party will still do what they want 'cause they have the numbers. But it doesn't mean you don't do the right thing when you have the opportunity to. So that's what I'll be doing for sure.

Do the right thing when no one's looking. 

That's right. 

There you go. 

Yeah. 

So for our last question, do you have any suggestions for MMA advocates that would help us get the municipal voice heard at the state level?

I think, go ahead, Liz. I think that is critical. I mean, I did that as much as possible, you know, and there's nothing worse than sitting in Caratunk getting Augusta mandates handed down to me like, I think all of us, no matter how big or how small you are, you don't want that. Right? And so that was one of the things that I always tried to represent. Towns like myself or the towns that I represent, what it is.

Because not everybody, if you're an urban city, you represent, thousands, tens of thousands of people versus small Maine rural communities. They don't understand the implications of what the proposed legislation would do to those towns, and so I think it's really important that town officials reach out to their representative. Or their senator, whoever is representing them for these bills, and explain what this will do to them. What are the unintended consequences? Bring practical examples of how this will impact them because they don't know. Because you know what, I'll tell you who's lining our halls 80% of the time, it's lobbyists.

They're being paid by whoever's paying them for whatever will benefit them. But we need to hear more from local town officials and citizens. But I think hearing from your local town officials carry a great weight with it.  So, I know when I used to receive those, emails from MMA, when it was something that was really impactful to me, I'm like, yes, I am going to do something.

And even if it's not writing a letter, just call them, have a conversation, leave a message, send an email. I mean, I look, we look at all those emails. But coming from a municipal official I think is very useful. Carries some weight. 

Yes. It's good to know. Thank you very much. 

Yeah, I, I would strongly second what Liz just was saying.

Having, municipal officials from the town or citizens from the town reach out directly to their legislator, their representatives, whether that's in committee hearing, in writing, Zoom or in person. Or just saying, Hey, I wanna have a cup of coffee. That's extremely important.

And Liz is right. We list, we listen. I mean, that's our job. But to hear it from a municipal official who's actually gotta live through this stuff that may be coming down from Augusta makes a big difference. 

Right. 

And, also, I think if you're kinda asking what can MMA do? Well, I think MMA needs to encourage individual representatives.

I mean individual, select board members, planning board members to do just that. And it would not also, it wouldn't hurt if, say, when MMA is testifying on a bill, particular bill and committee, that you have a municipal official right next to you, and that municipal official can say, yeah, well, MMA is concerned with a large, big picture, local control, how it affects municipalities, but here, how, how it's gonna affect my office.

This is my, my staff has to deal with this because of that. Now what do you say to that. That's what I'd suggest. Yeah. Yeah. 

Very good. 

Just to add to that, I just, I wanna say that, when MMA, when you guys did reach out to us or to me and tell me what the LPC, what their decision was and why, I used that and there were times on the floor that I stood up and I, I gave that viewpoint that the municipality is represented by the legislative policy committee. Feel this way and this way, or when I, when I needed information and I reached out to one of you all on staff. It was very helpful, because, we are drinking through a fire hose, and I can't go through all the bills.

I mean, it's hard enough for the 232 bills that I have in my committee that I'm trying to decipher. And then when bills are coming on the floor, in our caucuses, we'll have the chair of the committee explain what the bill is. But it's really helpful when MMA will actually break it down and give me some details, and then I can relate to it, and then I can express it.

So that's, that's really important and I'm really grateful for you guys to do that. And I'm also glad that when you do present before a committee, that you say that we represent the decisions of the LPC, which is 35 Senate districts. The vote of 35 senate districts, 70, a 70-person panel. I think that's important.

Those are great suggestions. Thank you. 

I've got one more suggestion for the MMA and this is what I've been hearing for a lot. If the MMA can somehow find a way to make more clear what they actually mean by taking the neither for nor against stand, and to spell that out in specifics rather than language that's overly broad, I think that I've, I've seen more than a few confused looks on committee members and wondering, so what do they mean by that, exactly. That would be very helpful. 

Fantastic. 

Do you think you two are more, inclined to be susceptible to a municipal official’s testimony than, say, legislators who are not or have never been a municipal official.

Yeah, I think so. Sure. Yeah. Partly it's because I, because Liz and I are living it and you know, I've got a meeting tonight, type of thing, and you, you're always living it. But a lot of people in the state legislature have been at one point or are currently municipal officials too. 

So, I don't think that a big gulf exists between the two. But yeah, if you're a current official, yeah, you feel it because, you know, you, I mean, you're, you're dealing with the town office and the staff. You're talking to the staff every day or when you're there, and so you know how this bill's gonna affect them on their daily life. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's my 2 cents there. 

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, Amanda, I think it quite could possibly be that we're more sensitive to MMA, I know that it's, you know, it's my bent, right? And I even, right behind me in the chambers, Representative Greenwood from Wales, and he's a select board member.

And so, you know, we'll confer, and we'll talk about, you know, what, what does this mean at the local level. And so, he'll have good insight as well. I would imagine that if people are representatives and senators, I mean they must care about representative government and there's no, nothing more representative than at your select board level, right?

That's where the true democracy is right there in, in your town meetings. They should be sensitive to what their towns are going over. The problem is if the political pressure from their leaders are overwhelming. Like political pressure from leadership is overwhelming what they know at the local level.

Or they think, well, this must be right because they're telling me to vote this way. You know? So that's why I think just making sure that there's other voices that are balancing out the pressure that's coming from above. It would be useful. I mean, it can't hurt. Right? 

Those are great tips. Thanks for all of those.

So, thank you both for joining us today. That wraps up our questions for you. Appreciate all of your insights and your suggestions for us going forward. We'll definitely take those under our hats and get more people there to bother you at the, the state level. 

Good. 

Well, we appreciate MMA, you're, I don't know what the little town of Caratunk would do, would've done all these years without MMA, because you're always a phone call away and you always have excellent resources and advice, and we appreciate you guys.

Yeah. Thank you very much. And, yeah, Lincolnville not such a little town. Not such a big town either. But, yeah, we've taken advantage of the great services you guys offer. We really appreciate it. Yeah. And I'd love to see you up there in Augusta. 

Well, it should be here before we know it, right? 

Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Well, thank you so much, both of you for being here.

Edition of the Town and City Magazine will be coming out, in the next week or so. Should be hitting mailboxes very shortly. And our advocacy staff is gonna be offering an opt-in mailing list for our members to follow along with some of the interim legislative studies that Rebecca has outlined in her article in the upcoming edition of the magazine.

So listeners, members should watch for an email from me that's gonna, request, if you wanna sign up for those emails, how to opt in. And so we'll be looking forward to describing for everybody what those studies will be sharing. And those will be happening between now and the beginning of the next session in January.

So.

Fantastic. Stay tuned. 

Okay. There we are then!